Unsubscribe from Social Pressure: How Tiny Living Can Liberate Your Life

In this episode of the Less House More Moola Podcast, host Laura Lynch speaks with Michele DeVries, a full-time RVer, photographer, and creator of Two Happy Campers. Michele and her husband, Mark, embraced an unconventional nomadic lifestyle, transforming their approach to work, debt, and the very concept of "success." Their story is a powerful testament to the liberating potential of downsizing, rejecting societal pressure, and curating a life deeply aligned with personal values.

Michele's Links

https://www.twohappycampers.com

https://www.instagram.com/twohappycampers___/

Book a Call with Laura

Go to thetinyhouseadviser.com

Transcript

Michele (00:00)
If we're constantly around people that are also kind of playing this game of trying to constantly level up, then I mean, the comparison trap is real. I'm about to take off the starting Saturday. I'm taking the rest of the year off social media. And I do that every year. I take a good like four to eight week break because I start to notice my thinking be affected by what I'm seeing online. And then I start to notice that like that thinking isn't really in line with my value.

and that's when I know I need to step back.

Less House More Moola Podcast (01:11)
Michelle DeVries, welcome to Less House More Moola podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time out to chat with me today.

Michele (01:21)
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I love the format and theme of your podcast. So yeah, let's do this.

Less House More Moola Podcast (01:27)
Yeah.

So go ahead and introduce yourself and share with us how long you have been living in your unconventional lifestyle.

Michele (01:37)
you

Yes. So my husband, Mark and myself are both photographers. We started a photography business back in 2004 together. And in 2012, we bought a truck camper and became really intrigued by the idea of living a nomadic lifestyle. We were living in Colorado at the time and I grew up in Arizona.

And as much as I tried to become a skier and a winter person, it just never really took for me. so our ⁓ evolution into full-time travel started with ⁓ realizing my dream of being a snowbird, getting out and away from the cold weather in the winter time. And then that evolved into... ⁓

that living small in a truck camper or RV kind of opened my eyes to the possibility of that being a vehicle for becoming debt free. And so that turned into a dream. And in 2017, we took to the road full time ⁓ in a tiny RV. We did that for a year. And then Mark got a pretty amazing job offer that we couldn't turn down. So we settled back down into house life for two years. And the pandemic

you

know, kind of through a wrench and everything like it did for a lot of people. But the silver lining was it was an opportunity to move back onto the road. We'd been missing it tremendously. So in 2020, we moved back onto the road. We have been full time RVers ever since then. And it is a dream come true. And I can't imagine living in a house again. And even if we did live in a house, it would be a tiny house. So I can't really imagine living in a traditional

lifestyle again. We love this life very much.

Less House More Moola Podcast (03:35)
Yeah, it's funny how it ⁓ sort of normalizes for you. And you and I talked when we chatted before about how maybe folks have sort of forgotten their ability, ability to adapt or be resilient. Even I just thought about this when I just turned the lights on in the kitchen and I was like, you know, there was a time where there weren't lights on in the kitchen. And in the winter, you just adapted to like having less light and candlelight and hearth light was kind of it.

And now like, well, if you feel a little damp or whatever, I'm having kind of a damp rainy day. I'm like, let's just turn on all the lights, right? And so tell us about that adaptation process for you. It sounds like it was definitely a dream for you. Were there any struggles along the way? And why is it you're so into it now that you just don't miss anything that's more conventional?

Michele (04:06)
It's so true.

Yeah.

So, you know, we were following that path that I think most people in this country follow, which is, you get out of school into the real world, as they like to say, and we're kind of given this template of what we're supposed to do. And we were following that template. We were building up our business. We were racking up tremendous amounts of debt because we had that have to spend money to make money mentality. And we were working towards buying a house and ⁓

Once we bought the house...

It didn't feel the way I thought it would. Something still felt like it was really lacking. And now we had this major responsibility, this thing that needed to be cared for and maintained. I mean, right off the bat, there was ⁓ such a big hailstorm, it took off most of the paint off our house and our whole house had to be repainted. And it was like, my gosh, the expense of that. just that really drove the point home of like the higher stakes that we were dealing with now that we owned a home and

And I just wasn't excited about it. It wasn't as fulfilling as I think we were presented that it would be. And so that's when I just really kind of got into my head, like, what else is out there? What could we do differently than this? And our...

buying our truck camper really kind of opened up that door of like, oh, there's different ways to live. Like, it sounds silly now that I'm in my 40s, but in my 20s, you're just so kind of, you're on this treadmill of like, this is what I was told I was supposed to do and I'm doing it. And so...

I'm totally getting off track from your question, but that's kind of what led us down that path. And it showed me that just because this traditional way works for so many people doesn't mean it works for everybody. And it's important to, I think, be asking yourself questions like, does this life work for me or do I want to do things a little bit differently? Am I doing it because I think I'm supposed to or am I doing all these things because it's what I want?

Less House More Moola Podcast (06:40)
Yeah, that critical thinking comes maybe with age and maybe there are some great young people out there that were smarter than I was for sure and start asking questions sooner in life and maybe the work that we're doing here in the conversation we're, you know, having here today will help spur creative thinking or critical thinking in younger people. But yeah, we just sort of, we just do what we're told for long time. And then

what we're told doesn't necessarily, I mean.

Having a house is great for folks that want to have a big family say and really like to be rooted in their community and you know all those things are are valuable things but there are other ways of being and doing and exploring and it sounds like that you've really just taken to the notion of of seeing new places and you know being out on the road and not so rooted is

Michele (07:19)
Yeah.

Yes.

Less House More Moola Podcast (07:41)
Is there anything about yourself that you think really makes that sort of a good fit?

Michele (07:45)
You know, I think that I'm a very curious person and I do tend to get bored easily and I also tend to crave a really strong connection with nature.

And before we took to the road, the house that we bought was ⁓ in a rural area. It was 35 minutes from the nearest town. And that was the first time I'd lived rurally. I was really nervous about that when we did that. And I learned right away I am someone who would rather be able to step outside my door into nature and have to drive 40 minutes to the grocery store.

than be able to drive two minutes to the grocery store and have to drive 40 minutes into nature. And so that kind of, you know, it helps to be able to identify what your priorities are. And it turned out that what the road had to offer and living in a tiny space, what that had to offer, checked a lot more boxes for me than living in a house. And of course it came with its sacrifices. Everything has its pros and cons.

But way more boxes were checked for me to live in this way. And I don't know now, like...

I am, ⁓ I'm an introvert and I'm a fairly sensitive soul, like just life comes at me and I get overwhelmed pretty easily and being in nature all the time, being able to just walk out my door and go walk in the, you know, undeveloped wilderness does a lot for my mental health. And I think that the way this lifestyle is portrayed on social media is that it's all about like adventure and like going on these like epic trips and

and attractions and all these things where for me it's like I just want a slower pace and ⁓ I want to have more free time and feel less like I need to hustle and be earning and producing constantly and this lifestyle really allows for that.

Less House More Moola Podcast (09:48)
Yes, that's like a constant theme that I think we're all thinking about right now is how to, in your really great words, unsubscribe from hustle culture, right, or social norms and expectations and create a life that, you know, really feeds our soul, our need for nature, our introvert selves. And what a

beautiful time that we can actually do that and and make a living and also live that lifestyle. And it seems like that you all have come up with this what you call a weird life hack. So expand on that a little bit more in terms of how you strike that balance.

Michele (10:35)
Yeah, so the way our business works, Mark and I are wedding photographers and so it's like freelance work. We're not guaranteed a paycheck at the end of every week and that has really helped us see like kind of way the money coming in versus the money going out and how much do we want to work and how much free time do we want to have and how much do we want to travel and... ⁓

We, for a very long time, tried so hard to get our business to be... ⁓

lucrative through the winter time. It was really hard to do living where we lived and ⁓ doing the kind of weddings that we did, which take place at Colorado ski resorts when it's not skiing season. When it is skiing season, it was just so much harder to drum up work. so we started looking at our life in terms of like time versus money. And it was like, OK, so.

It's this strange balance, Of like, you make a lot of people that make a lot of money don't have the time to spend it. But sometimes if you have a lot of free time, you don't have the money to like, you know, do the things that you want to do. And so we got to a place of can we consolidate our working season into a five month period of time when it's the busiest and manage our money in a way that it can keep us,

in a good financial position the entire year. And now it took a lot of work, I'll say, to get there. It didn't happen overnight, but it was this constant evolution where we went, OK, we can, like starting in May, put our heads down and just grind knowing that.

come the start of November, we are free to go wherever we want and do whatever we want. And that's why I call it like a weird life hack. It almost feels like semi-retirement. I mean, I go and live on the beach in Mexico for the entire winter with my feet in the sand in 80 degree weather. I paddle board with dolphins and I watch whales every day. And I'm just like, this feels like it should only be for for millionaires to live this kind of lifestyle. And here I am, this little wedding photography.

that has managed to find this much time off and we wouldn't be able to do that if we were trying to maintain this big life footprint with this huge house and...

⁓ you know, top-of-the-line vehicles and all the things, but we reduced our life to such a small, nice and tidy package of just what we need that has freed up so much time for us to be able to really enjoy life and not feel like we're just working and paying bills constantly.

Less House More Moola Podcast (13:22)
Do you find that there's a transition period when November comes and you head South and where you have to kind of still deprogram yourself from the hustle mentality and like you have to like coach yourself into this. Okay. I have created this lifestyle for myself so that I can relax on the beach and paddle board and all the beautiful things. And it's okay for me to enjoy that.

Michele (13:49)
That is such a great observation. That is the hardest time of year for me on both ends in November and at the start of May. I finally identified and accepted that there's a two to three week period of like a great amount of discomfort as I adjust into my new routine.

And I find that sitting down with myself that time of year and just kind of evaluating what I want for the upcoming season and transitioning into that period helps me to recognize kind of like, okay, it's time to make that shift. But yes, it's hard because it's kind of an unusual way to live. ⁓

Obviously totally worth it. But yeah in your head it's like wait a second and I'm I'm a person that finds So much value in being productive and accomplishing things and it has been a lot for me to be okay with really slowing down

Less House More Moola Podcast (14:47)
Yes, yes, that we can all become more okay with slowing down, and that we can all create some space in our life to slow down. I think that that is just, you know, a major life lesson, especially for those gals out there that are our age, right? This is our time where we really need to be, ⁓ you know, coming into ourselves and taking care of ourselves and slowing down.

Michele (14:53)
Yes.

Absolutely. And I've heard so many stories of people that get to retirement and they're so unhappy because they don't know how to slow down. They don't know what to do with themselves. It makes perfect sense. so it's, you you spend decades of just, you know, grinding, grinding, grinding. So of course, what are you supposed to do? The moment you go, what? I don't have a job to go to anymore. And so I think that

It's such an opportunity that I have to even get to practice this, living a slower life, but I think tiny living really sets us up to have that opportunity.

Less House More Moola Podcast (15:53)
So is there anything else in the sort of prescribed world, the conventional life that you have had to work on letting go of?

Michele (16:02)
You know, I've been living this life what feels like so long now that I have a hard time tapping into what has been left behind. It feels so normal to me that it takes like hanging out with friends and family that live traditional lives for me to remember how different my life is. And not necessarily. I think every now and then I crave some extra space.

Just for ease. know, like having a bedroom door that I can close if Mark wants to stay up late and watch a movie, like, sounds neat and nice. ⁓ As a mobile, you know, someone that lives on the road, the address thing and mail is just kind of a constant just pain point, but...

We learned to adapt to all these things because what we get in return is so worth it. And it continues to be that way. And so I think that's why it's been pretty easy to let go of all of the things that maybe creature comforts that we've left behind. We've just gotten so much value out of living this way that it's not even something that really I don't even really think about anymore.

Less House More Moola Podcast (17:23)
Yeah, back to that resilience and, you know, adaptation and ⁓ that's a human skill that we have and our ability to settle into and appreciate whatever our circumstances may be, not to minimize struggles, but just we can put ourselves in uncomfortable positions that maybe look uncomfortable to others and find comfort there.

Michele (17:32)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, yes.

Less House More Moola Podcast (17:53)
So let's talk a little bit about the broader world at large and how you think about this sort of low debt, living on a cyclical income, spending a lot of time not spending money, how you sort of frame that in terms of where we are in the world sort of currently.

Michele (18:19)
Everything feels so uncertain, which is always true, but it feels more true lately than ever. I feel more in touch with that than ever. And I'll never forget being a teenager and like my parents like lived a very big life in terms of a big, beautiful house and really nice cars and lots of toys, boats and airplane,

did really well for themselves. But I remember as a teenager thinking, like I would get stressed thinking, how am I gonna be able to afford this kind of life for myself? And like my parents, I recognized the stress that they had about finances and keeping up with all those things. And I saw it cause tension in their marriage. And...

So I've always been a pretty introspective person. And so that started from a young age of like, my gosh, this looks like so much work to make all of this happen. And once I got ⁓ into this lifestyle, it's like, you don't need all of that necessarily.

Living an unconventional lifestyle puts you more in touch, I think, with asking yourself what works for me and what doesn't, rather than asking, like, looking at the what you think you should be doing. And to bring that back to, the time we're living in now, just reducing everything to less means I just have less to worry about. It seems really obvious and kind of like a general statement. But I mean...

There's so much less I have to worry about maintaining and payments to pay for things. And it keeps my head really clear and worrying about what's important and not getting caught up in things that aren't important. And the pandemic is a great example. I did not knowing that I could live like this and be so happy.

really reduced the fear when my career became so incredibly ⁓ non-essential. Like that was such a ⁓ exercise, a thought exercise and going, my gosh, literally overnight, the job that I've been relying on for 20 years is just not, like people aren't getting married all of a sudden. And you...

If I had that life that my parents were living, I may have gone into an insane asylum out of just like panic of how am I going to get through this. But the pandemic for Mark and I was like, well, we'll just we'll live on the road and like we'll ride this out and it and, you know, take it as it comes. And it's that adaptability. And that gives me so much.

comfort right now when we don't really know what the next few years looks like. And it's like, also, I just feel more okay with kind of riding those waves, like, rather than feeling like this ball of tension of like, how are we gonna sustain our life while we ride through this craziness?

Less House More Moola Podcast (21:38)
Is part of the resilience there also the going to an economy where things are a little bit cheaper? You all spend time in Mexico. Do you find that you are able to live on even less there from a dollar's perspective?

Michele (21:56)
Yes, that is something that I think kind of throws people off when we tell them that, like people that have never been to Mexico that are curious about our travels to Mexico, we go down there for four to five months and absolutely live cheaper than we live here. And I just feel so grateful that we can even do that. And it also puts things back in perspective too. think that we're getting a little, I mean, everyone realizes everything is getting more expensive, but it's this constant gradual increase.

that I think with some things you can kind of just get used to it maybe where we'll go to Mexico and we can go out and have a full-blown meal for ten or twelve dollars.

and I come back here and go, I can't stomach having to spend $50 every time I go out to eat. Like, is this how I want to be spending my money? And so it breaks us out of our norms, and I think that that is super helpful too, to just evaluate our spending and make sure that we're spending in ways that we feel good about.

Less House More Moola Podcast (22:57)
Yeah, and so as you're headed into this season, are you all headed, you're headed that way soon? Or are you there already?

Michele (23:07)
I wish I could say yes to either one of those questions. I have, due to some health things, having to hang back in Colorado this year, because insurance is tied to a state, that's where things get complicated as someone that roams around. And so we will go down to Mexico probably in February, but.

Yes, we're navigating health and health insurance things from the road right now, which is not impossible, but a little bit extra, you know, harder to do than when you're at a house.

Less House More Moola Podcast (23:43)
Yeah, yeah, we all have to navigate a very complex that is one of the complexities of modern life that everybody is dealing with, right is insurance and health insurance complexities. So that's not a particularly, you know, difficult thing for folks that are nomadic, though it has some ⁓ little bit more nuance to it. But

Michele (23:53)
Yes, 100%.

Less House More Moola Podcast (24:07)
you know, getting good healthcare is increasingly more of a self-managed process either way.

Michele (24:14)
Yes, absolutely.

Less House More Moola Podcast (24:16)
So what advice do you have for folks that are kind of out there just...

Like they, they watched the YouTube videos and they followed the journeys and they say, wow, that looks so good. And then they just come back to that pressure of constantly needing to level up or, you know, status or, you know, the career or even the health insurance thing. I couldn't do that. I'd have to leave my employer health plan. Right? Like there's just so many.

limiting beliefs or rules that we put around ourselves. So what do you say to those people that still have those rules?

Michele (24:54)
Let's say do an audit of your input. Like what are you taking in on a daily basis online and in person with your in-person relationships? Because that is so, has so much to do with our thinking and our choices in life. And I think a lot of it is subconscious. And...

If we're constantly around people that are also kind of playing this game of trying to constantly level up, then I mean, the comparison trap is real. And I'm about to take off the starting Saturday. I'm taking the rest of the year off social media. And I do that every year. I take a good like four to eight week break because I start to notice my thinking be affected by what I'm seeing online. And then I start to notice that like that thinking isn't really in line with my value.

and that's when I know I need to step back. ⁓

You know, living on the road has shown me too, like I have so many friends now that live an unconventional lifestyle and we have such similar values and I never had those kind of people in my life when I lived in a house. ⁓ It changes everything, I think, when you can identify your values and find people and ⁓ content that aligns with that. And it takes a lot of looking inwards to figure out what those values are, but I think that's a really

valuable exercise to do so that you can start working towards it takes a long time to I get it but to slowly changing the course of your life so that it aligns with what's important to you rather than just doing what you think you're supposed to be doing.

Less House More Moola Podcast (26:43)
So this takes me back to what you said when we first chatted about unsubscribing from social norms and expectations, doing an audit of everything that's coming in that's flowing into your mind and all of those influences because everyone we're all influencing each other, right? Everybody in person or online or whatever, like we're constantly in this exchange of values and ideas. And we can choose where we're going to get that.

Michele (27:01)
Right, yeah.

Yes.

Less House More Moola Podcast (27:13)
information from and we can choose what to subscribe to and what to unsubscribe from.

Michele (27:16)
bright.

Exactly. It's so true. And I think that it's easy to kind of lose sight of that power that we have because we kind of just get accustomed to our own feeds, you know, and the feeds are also very effective at being infiltrated secretly with all these ads and sponsored posts and things that come in when we're not even asking to see it. And I think and it depends on the person, the personality type.

Some people are more sensitive than others. I know I'm definitely more sensitive, but we're all looking at our screens every day and we're all being impacted in one way or another, positive or negative, with what we're taking in. And so I personally want to feel like I have some kind of control over what I'm feeding my brain because it affects my decisions in life. And I think it's really important to know, to recognize that.

Less House More Moola Podcast (28:16)
Yeah.

It's like we're all connected consciousness in a sense, right? It's all kind of like one big web, right? And you got to figure out which corner of the web you want to hang out in and where you want to contribute and receive from. Because there is the full spectrum and your algorithm gets trained by what you look at. And so if you're looking at status based posts all the time, you're going to see more of the same. And if you start looking at value space posts in line with your values,

Michele (28:21)
Yeah, right? Yes.

Yes.

Less House More Moola Podcast (28:47)
you'll start receiving that content and so you have to you have to manage it just like you have to manage your health care just like you have to manage your finances just like you have to manage your mental health like it's all about being in your own agency.

Michele (28:59)
Exactly.

Right. Can I share a great example of that? This was, I think like 2010, right around the time we bought our first house. I stumbled across a website. is social media wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is now. I stumbled across a website called Man Versus Debt that was all about paying off your debt.

Less House More Moola Podcast (29:05)
Yes.

Michele (29:24)
And again, I feel silly for saying this in my 40s, but in my early, like in my 20s, I had never really been ⁓ brought, like the idea of being debt free was not something I had even considered. In my head, like you have to have debt to get ahead. Like that was, and you know, we all have our different mentalities around money depending on how we're brought up. And...

It really blew me away. thought, how have I not like considered being debt free? And that is an example of what different input can do for your. ⁓

your train of thought and like right away I was one of the motivating factors to change our lifestyle because I thought I want to be debt free. I want to know what that feels like, how that changes things for us. And we immediately got on that track. And that is like to come across one website that it can change things so drastically. That is an example of how your life can change if you pay attention and you really curate your impulse.

I think.

Less House More Moola Podcast (30:34)
you

Yeah, that's such a great example because we don't, we can't, as the expressions goes, we can't be what we can't see. So until you see it the first time and until you like, you go, wow, I never even thought about that. You don't even know. And there's so many people out there that are, sitting around waiting to buy their first home and get into their first, 30 year mortgage. And right now there's conversation in the ether about the 50 year mortgage, which I've

Michele (30:44)
Exactly. Exactly.

Less House More Moola Podcast (31:04)
covered on a previous podcast episode, but they're just like, yeah, I'm just going to pay for the roof over my head for 30 years. And if I can't afford the 30 year, then maybe I can have an even longer loan. And they have no really concept of how much of that is actually paying the roof versus paying the people to borrow their money and how much it's going to cost of your total

Michele (31:27)
Right.

Less House More Moola Podcast (31:32)
human capital, like your time, your energy, right? It's all like, devoted, such a large percentage of it devoted to having that roof, which keeps you, stuck in one place, right? And maybe nomadic is not for everybody and small isn't for everybody, but just understanding like, what are my options?

Michele (31:34)
Yes.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And once we

Achieve that goal and became debt free. I was really pretty blown away by how The weight that I felt that was lifted that I didn't even realize I was carrying around with me And I think that has to be so true for so many people we don't acknowledge it because we think we're just doing this thing that everyone else is doing and we're supposed to be doing and Once that weight was gone. I was like, I never want to carry that around with me again. It takes It takes off so much weight And like we were talking about these times of uncertainty

just allows me to feel so much less stress about what I need to try to earn in order to keep up.

Less House More Moola Podcast (32:35)
Yeah. So it sounds like though that you didn't come from, this, camping life or downsize life or tiny life. And so has this been a process for you over the years of discovering yourself and discovering how you are, unique, uh, coming from the family that you came from?

Michele (32:57)
For sure, 16 year old me would be, wouldn't believe it. I mean, I had a huge walk-in closet all to myself when I was a teenager that was filled with the highest fashion that my mom loved buying, like for me. And when friends come into our RV, a lot of the women will be like, where are all your clothes?

and I'll take them into our tiny little closet that feels perfectly adequate for me. And I laugh because it is a transition, it is an evolution over time. I could have never done it overnight, but it is that constant evaluating pros and cons and really just paying attention to what I'm getting in exchange for giving up these things. And...

No, I would never take back the debt or the overhead so that I could have my closet back. Like, but at first it is, it is, I think that when you're, you want to transition out of your traditional life and into tiny living or nomadic living, all you can really see is what you're going to give up. You can't see what you're going to get from it until you're doing it. And that's where I think things can get kind of tricky for people. You have to

There has to be a leap of faith that something in your gut is telling you like this is the life I want to live or at least the life I want to try and I believe it feels aligned with my values and I believe it's gonna pay off and you kind of just have to go for it and if it doesn't work out like that's a thing too like So that's fine. You tried it and now you know

You really don't know what's gonna happen. You just have to kind of follow your heart in these situations. And a long time ago in my 20s, my heart was saying, this was the life I wanted to pursue and I feel very grateful that it has worked out. But if you just focus on what you're leaving behind and you're afraid of being uncomfortable or out of your element, have faith that you're gonna get things in return that you just can't, you won't know until you're doing it.

Less House More Moola Podcast (35:11)
Such wise advice. So Michelle, where can listeners find and follow you?

Michele (35:18)
So I blog weekly at twohappycampers.com. I love writing essays and sharing things about how to go about full-time RV living just to inspire anyone that is drawn to this lifestyle. So you can subscribe over there, twohappycampers.com and I'm on Instagram at Two Happy Campers.

Less House More Moola Podcast (35:40)
Michelle, thanks for sharing your long history because sometimes we don't get to hear, so much depth in terms of people's experience. And so I really appreciate you bringing that as well as your ideas around auditing our inputs and unsubscribing and how we do that. That was super valuable.

Michele (36:02)
Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a really great conversation. I appreciate it.