Tiny Home Systems Magic with Ellen Stone

In this episode of the Less House More Moola podcast, host Ellen Stone discusses her journey into the tiny home movement, the advocacy work she has done to legalize tiny homes in San Diego, and the various benefits of tiny living. She shares her personal experiences, the emotional aspects of tiny living, and how tiny homes can serve as solutions for the unhoused. The conversation also touches on the importance of community, the appeal of tiny homes on wheels, and the need for skilled labor in the construction industry. Ellen emphasizes the significance of advocacy and collaboration in making tiny homes a viable option for many.

Ellen's Links

https://tinyhomecentral.org/

https://www.facebook.com/tinyhomecentral/

https://www.instagram.com/tinyhomecentralsd/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenstonefrudakis/

Laura's Links

website: https://www.thetinyhouseadviser.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinyhouseadviser/

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@lesshousemoremoolapod

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thetinyhouseadviser/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesshousemoremoolapod/

Go to thetinyhouseadviser.com

Transcript

Less House More Moola Podcast (00:02)
Well, Ellen Stone, welcome to Less House More Moola podcast. I am so excited that we get to have this conversation. You and I ran into each other in San Diego at Tiny Fest back last month. So it's so good that we get to finally spend some time together after we just met so briefly. So thanks so much for joining me.

Ellen Stone (00:24)
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Less House More Moola Podcast (00:27)
Yeah, there are so many folks out there doing work on the advocacy part of tiny living. And I just respect so much what you're doing and how long you have been working in this space. And I feel like you are one of the original pioneers of this lifestyle. So I think it'll be great for listeners to hear from your long perspective on things.

So if you would get us kicked off, please introduce yourself, the work you do in the world and where you are.

Ellen Stone (01:00)
Thank you so much. Yeah, so I would say, I am co-founder, sorry, let me say that again. So my business is Tiny Home Central and my tagline is Tiny Homes in Real Life. So really looking at the where of the tiny home and trying to solve that problem with people. So I got started in the tiny home industry, or,

kind of movement I would say originally in 2016, I got the bug of Tiny Homes in 2013 and talked about it nonstop with everyone I knew. They were so tired of it. So I transitioned to the advocacy and helping, working with other people to solve that where problem. The first thing I came across

that was a surprise to me was the legal issue of parking a movable tiny home. so that's where I jumped in and really working with and introducing the housing type to our local leaders, both elected officials and the staff at the

building department and met a lot of really wonderful folks that had done that in other areas and we were able to bring them in to help us. So I've really kind of gone from movement, like the passion and the excitement of the movement of what's possible in tiny home living to the being in the industry now.

And at the same time as transitioning to the industry, also doing, implementing the thing that I advocated for so, for so many years, which is putting a tiny home in my backyard as an ADU. And that's a moveable tiny home. So I can speak to all of those things and the challenges and also the joy.

I think that's one of the things I love about tiny homes is there's something magical about them that lights up people's eyes. Yeah, so.

Less House More Moola Podcast (03:39)
Yes. So you're in San Diego. Yes. And so this is amazing because you have had to go through this whole advocacy process for yourself that you've learned so much about. And then on the other hand, you see it as a solution and a magical solution in many ways, which we'll get into. So take us back to 2013 when you started

Ellen Stone (03:42)
I am. Yep.

Less House More Moola Podcast (04:07)
first talking about tiny homes. Gosh, there weren't there wasn't a lot going on in terms of media back then. So how did you first learn about tiny homes and what excited you about them? And like, tell me about those early years what you recall because I was a while ago.

Ellen Stone (04:10)
Yeah.

Sure. It was,

oh my gosh, 12 years ago. So I accidentally came into the world of tiny homes because I was looking for an affordable place to live. I was in graduate school and needed to limit my expenses and it's pretty expensive to live here in San Diego. So I found this little cottage that was in a cluster of cottages. It was

270 square feet and that sounded insane to me, but I you know had to do it. I had to make it work and This funny thing happened when I moved in and kind of started getting organized and figuring out how to live well with less My life got better So I had better, know less stress

ease of life could be out in the world with the people and the places that I loved because I wasn't so distracted with keeping up a larger space. And that was a surprise to me. I had never really thought about space as a kind of a way that life can be lived.

And architects know this, right? Like builders know this. A lot of people have done thinking on the built environment and how it affects daily living. So that was a happy surprise. And then at the same time, somebody told me about Pinterest. And so I was doing all of that scrolling and came across the tiny home movement and concept. And my mind just exploded because

there were a lot of people talking about how the lifestyle had really improved their quality of life. so I felt like I found a community that understood that. And then there was, of course, the financial piece that made a lot of sense to me. plus they were just so dang cute. Like I just, I loved the cottage vibe.

and so that's kind of how, well, and there was also the affordable housing for underserved populations that was a big part of it for me. So was kind of those three things. and I had been working in the first part of my career with individuals with, mental health conditions, serious mental illness. And they were, you know, a lot of them on public assistance and

it was becoming less and less, they were becoming less and less able to even rent a room somewhere, afford to rent a room somewhere. I just, I tend to be like a big thinker and like, what if kind of person. And I started thinking, wow, maybe this could be a way that I could own a home someday. And my goodness, what if we were able,

to design a program or a pathway for some of these people that I've been working with, these wonderful individuals, to not just have a place to rent that they could afford with a space that helped them live a good quality life, but also maybe someday have home ownership, which is just like not a conversation that ever happens in the mental health community. So.

That's the big, yeah, gist of it.

Less House More Moola Podcast (08:22)
Yeah. Yeah. There's so many pieces to that that I want to kind of unpack. It's did you, I'm curious, did you, when you first moved into that 200 plus square foot place, did it, someone say it was a tiny house or right?

Ellen Stone (08:39)
No.

In fact, the owner was surprised that I would even consider it. They were, I think, I think this was their first attempt at renting it and they had no idea what they had because that just wasn't a thing in popular culture. Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (09:07)
Yes.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. I rented a 300 square foot apartment in Sarasota, Florida, in the top of a like an 1800s garage that had been renovated. The word tiny house did not. it wasn't. think that's right.

Ellen Stone (09:16)
Mmm.

No, it wasn't a thing. Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (09:27)
And so it's just amazing how when you get introduced to these smaller spaces or how we all got introduced to these smaller spaces, it was largely out of necessity and, you know, affordability. And then it became, you know, tiny houses or alternative living or, whatever we however we talk about it.

Ellen Stone (09:37)
Yes.

Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (09:50)
Yeah, I really enjoyed my 300 square foot. was like, it was all, it was the first time I had been like living on my own actually. And it was like my own space and I could make of it what I wanted. And it was just adorable and I loved it.

Ellen Stone (09:57)
Yeah. Yeah!

Yeah, totally. And how about that, you know, 20 minutes to clean the entire, you know, you could do a deep, deep cleaning and it's just an hour, right? So there's that, that part too, that's just like, I'm not into cleaning. Like that's not fun for me. Some people, you know, love that and I'm just not. And so like that's another really cool thing.

is just the ease of kind of the operations of a home.

Less House More Moola Podcast (10:39)
Absolutely. I can't say I can clean my tiny house in an hour though because there's so much dog hair everywhere. Nonetheless.

Ellen Stone (10:44)
yeah, that's great.

Dog hair will complicate that a little bit.

Less House More Moola Podcast (10:51)
All right, so then, you know, flash forward, right? We're like, you know, many years from there. So what has kept you engaged? I mean, you've built a business around this, right? And you are continuing your advocacy work and you really pursued the city for a long time in terms of helping educate them and, you know, getting tiny house on wheels.

Ellen Stone (11:05)
Later.

Less House More Moola Podcast (11:20)
you know, placed on your property and on others. So what has kept you coming back for all of the emotional ride of tiny homes?

Ellen Stone (11:29)
Yeah,

yeah, because it's a journey. It's not us, you know, decide to live tiny. Okay, just like let's put all the pieces together. I think the promise of what tiny homes can offer for so many different people in so many different ways and reasons. It's very exciting to me and

There's something about that that just keeps coming back and there's keeps me coming back and there's there's so much work to do around the operational parts of bringing tiny homes into real life. There's so much work to do there and I like a puzzle. I'm a I love jigsaw puzzles. Something.

that our family is into when we're all hanging out. And so it's hard, it's hard work. And I enjoy that part of it. And I also enjoy the community, kind of the part of bringing community together to solve a problem because it can't be done by just one person.

Um, and so there are a lot of really wonderful, um, not just tiny home business owners, but, um, advocacy folks. Um, and so there, there were a whole group of us, there were a whole group of people that came together to really help bring that legal option forward. takes, it takes a lot of people to make that happen. So, um,

Yeah, and then there's just the magic of them. And I don't even know how to put my finger on that. But they're just delightful.

Less House More Moola Podcast (13:43)
Let's talk

about the unhoused a little bit more because that really lights you up and you're you have worked in that space in the past. What are you seeing in California or in your area regarding tiny homes as solutions for the unhoused? And do you think that that is, you know, that there's progress being made on that and on that front? And, know,

Ellen Stone (13:47)
and

Less House More Moola Podcast (14:12)
How do you see that affecting those folks lives? And talk more about your passion there.

Ellen Stone (14:18)
Yeah, so I think, you know, obviously when you're looking at tiny homes as a solution for, or as a pathway for affordable housing, which is one of the reasons why people are attracted to tiny home living, you know, it's a no-brainer that you would think, wow, this could be a solution for the unhoused. And a lot of

you know, affordable housing and homeless services folks were attracted to that. think I met someone in 2016, a group that was doing it up in Seattle, and they were building these shelters for like $3,500 each and created this community. And they were really one of the first

kind of groups, low income, I think it was the Low Income Housing Institute that were making it happen and showing other people how. In fact, they were even sharing the plans for those structures, sharing them freely with folks. And what's interesting is,

And then there's Portland was like a whole group of folks that were solving homelessness, utilizing tiny homes. there's this huge opportunity. Nonprofits, think, housing nonprofits jumped in and started making that happen. And then, you you have governments starting to see, wow, you know, this could be.

a solution that we can afford to support and then you have the industry and businesses stepping up and creating a product that then governments can use to really scale solutions. And I would say, you I love all of that. It's completely necessary and important for us to utilize any tool.

we have because it's such a complicated issue. And there's no one reason why someone becomes unhoused. So.

Yes, tiny homes, let's use them in those situations. And there's this like, sort of stigma that also comes along with that when you're working to legalize tiny homes in each of the communities, which is such an important part of my life in sort of the where.

you place it in the how. So we've worked really hard locally and I'm grateful to this organization called Amicus, which works with women and children that are unhoused and finding housing for them. They really created this terminology that now I practice whenever I speak about it, which is sleeping cabins.

as opposed to just tiny homes and really creating that distinction and clarification when you're out speaking from an advocacy standpoint, but also an operational, how do we get this done? Because there is a lot, know, communities are scared. They have a lot of opinions or kind of...

if they haven't been involved with someone who has gone through that journey or with nonprofits that are helping to solve that problem, you know, they think drugs, they think crime, they think like, I don't want that in my backyard. So long story short, long answer summary, that's been really...

an important part of what I do, which is making that distinction. Because the homes that you can utilize at scale to help with homelessness, they don't have internal plumbing, they don't have independent kitchen, like all of those things that you need to have your daily living activities.

not happening there. And so there really is a difference between long-term permanent housing where you have all of those components built in to the home and that temporary housing solution. So I work really hard on that, on creating that distinction and helping people, or at least when I see the collapsing that happens around the terminology.

It's really important that we help people see that there are many different versions of tiny homes and they can fit many different needs.

Less House More Moola Podcast (20:10)
Yeah, for sure. It's interesting because, you know, sleeping cabins to your point, right? They're a safe place to sleep. They're not necessarily a fully functioning house in the conventional way that we think of them. And yet on the other hand, as I recently said on another podcast where I was talking about, you know, housing challenges, we are all one bad day.

away from being homeless in the the real sense, right? Especially for folks that are really dependent upon their salary to continue to pay for the mortgage and the car payments. In this moment where we're seeing, you know, job loss in our economy, it's good for us all to, you know, be empathetic and aware that

Ellen Stone (20:38)
Yeah, it's really true.

Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (21:04)
People, when they lose their source of income, lose the roof over their head. And so we are all one bad day away from this. It's not something that just happens to people that are intentionally wrecking their lives. Not that anybody does that intentionally, but it's just all of us are precarious in this moment unless we have

Ellen Stone (21:20)
Yeah.

to all of us.

Less House More Moola Podcast (21:30)
full and complete ownership over our home, which very few do. yeah. So you and I talked a little bit before about the magic that you see with students and building tiny homes. And as a person who loves to get a hammer in my hand, this is really exciting.

Ellen Stone (21:35)
So true. Yeah.

Yes.

You know all about that, don't you?

Less House More Moola Podcast (21:56)
Yeah, it's really

Ellen Stone (21:57)
Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (21:57)
exciting to hear more about that. So share with us about what involvement you've had and what you're seeing with students building tiny houses and like all the things talk about that.

Ellen Stone (22:09)
Okay, so there is, so we, so there's the kind of personal empowerment side of having a hammer in your hand and seeing something be built and brought into the world. And there's the very real problem that we have right now with a loss of skilled labor and needing to bring more people into the industry that helps us create our homes.

So I love anytime you can solve two problems or even more than two problems at the same time. And that's what I started to see from these folks that were creating programs in high schools to build tiny homes. That there was something about a tiny home that was more interesting to learn about construction.

for younger people than just traditional, like, let's go rehab a house or let's build a, you know, stick-built home. There was something about the tiny home that just was attractive. hey, like, I want to be part of that. And I think a lot of students also just are very aware. A lot of young people get at a

very basic level, like a gut level, that there's this problem that they're inheriting of affordability in housing. And then there's just educators and how do they keep kids engaged and all of that. So I can't remember how I first was introduced.

Less House More Moola Podcast (23:56)
you

Ellen Stone (24:05)
no, you know what it was when I was doing a lot of advocacy, there was this high school called High Tech High that we have here. I don't know if they've branched out to other communities, but it's this really cool school that looks at a lot of different kind of problems and helps solve those problems during the education, the high school education process. And they were looking at shelters and tiny homes.

for people that were unhoused. those were more just kind of small scale sleeping cabins, but just very cool. And then I heard about students in high schools building the permanent kind of movable tiny home that had all of the components that you need for daily living.

And we, my husband and I were very fortunate that we were able to buy our own home and it had this big backyard. In fact, that was, you my husband had his thing, his checklist of what he wanted in a home and mine was mostly the backyard because I wanted to do this. I wanted to have.

a real life example and a proof of concept for this. And so when we were looking at the unit that we would put in, it made sense to us to go with the high school that was building the unit. And so that's what we did. We hired a local school, a secondary high school urban core that had a building program.

and they built us our tiny home, which is just sitting magically back there. And then I saw that other high schools were taking it up and working with the same curriculum that we had worked with to create ours. And I think we have like four or five different schools locally here that are now doing that.

and creating sort of a pipeline really of a product that can be more affordable but also bring young people into the building industry because the truth is they can come into their adulthood with the money, right? So like,

income generation in construction, as opposed to the traditional pathway of a lot of folks going into college and gaining debt and building debt. There's this other opportunity where they can be making a livable wage and having independence, financial independence. So that's a no-brainer for me and there's a lot of great people working in the building.

industry that are working with students to have them see that opportunity and get paid training. I mean, who gets paid to learn and develop a skill? I don't see that happening in a lot of other places.

Less House More Moola Podcast (27:44)
Yeah. Could it possibly be the fact that we have shorter attention spans? And so the idea of building a tiny house is so much more attractive than doing drywall on 3000 square feet. Right? So like,

Ellen Stone (27:54)
Ha ha ha!

That's

interesting, I never thought about it like that. yeah. You get that piece done with a 200 square foot space a lot faster. And then you can learn plumbing and electrical and all of that stuff.

Less House More Moola Podcast (28:02)
Yeah

This is something that

Yeah, this is something that we really noticed when building our tiny house was like, you know, wham bam, you're done with this. Wham bam, you're done with that, right? It's like you get to move through the project so much quicker and therefore you don't get sort of bogged down. And my gosh, we got to continue to, you know, put down flooring, putting down flooring in our, you know, 1300 square foot house. took us a year while living in the house to get done with all the flooring just because we had to.

Ellen Stone (28:28)
Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (28:45)
constantly be moving furniture and doing it on weekends and whatever. And it took us a year to get through the whole thing. Whereas, you know, you put down flooring and 300 square feet and you can knock it out in, you know, two days, right? Totally different experience. And you can learn, you know, so much faster. And maybe you have to build a couple of tiny houses before you're proficient at, you know, the electrical or plumbing or whatever, but

Ellen Stone (28:51)
Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Less House More Moola Podcast (29:11)
At least you feel some sense of accomplishment so much faster, which gives you that, you know, hit that you need in order to stay motivated. Yeah.

Ellen Stone (29:20)
Yeah,

yeah. Well, and there's, in that capacity, there's such a need for the skilled licensed contractors to be involved to make sure that it's done correctly and that it meets building codes. so that's the fact that the curriculum has been created and can then be used by those skilled professionals because

typical construction is, while there's a lot of parallels and overlap with the movable tiny home construction, there are some really big differences. And I think I heard on one of your other podcasts, a guest talking about the difference in weight, just weight distribution on a movable tiny home when someone isn't used to building.

those. So just going back to my point here is to have those homes be sort of more bite-sized in their learning opportunities, but also be partnering with folks that know how to build and can do it in such a way where you have an end product that will last for tens of...

you know, decades.

Less House More Moola Podcast (30:54)
So you're really focused on the on wheels component, you know, and of course we all know that there are so many ways to live in a small space, right? We've got people in vans and skoolies and yurts and shed conversions and all of that. And you're really focused on the on wheels. Is there any particular reason why the on wheels, you know, is your focus area?

Ellen Stone (31:00)
I am.

Less House More Moola Podcast (31:24)
being that especially in your area, ADUs, right, on slab or, you know, more permanent foundation is more common. Why do you like wheels on your tiny houses?

Ellen Stone (31:36)
Yeah.

So I think, so really the simple answer to your question there is that it's more accessible to folks that don't have a lot of financial opportunities. And I really, my heart is with kind of the people that are figuring out how to solve really difficult problems with not a lot of resources.

And when you separate the home from the land, it's less expensive, but it creates a whole other set of issues, which is really what Tiny Home Central is trying to solve, is the where of, that's the path you're going, if that's the path you can afford and want is a tiny home on wheels, that there are a lot of challenges and...

Tiny Home Central is committed to helping people solve those. there's that piece of opportunity and access that the Ones on Wheels provide. But I think there's also, I feel like there's so much change happening in our world. We have a lot of things happening because of climate change that

complicate the built environment. You know, you have fires, you have sea level rise. So there's this new challenge that we have as a society around permanence in our homes and what's reality, which is that there's sort of a crash there or a

what's the word I'm looking for? Like two rams, you know, banging their heads together. There's this what we're used to, which is permanence in our housing and the reality that our environment isn't permanent and it's very much changing every day and every year. So I love the ones on wheels, you know, tiny homes on wheels as a solution for that challenge that we have. so like if

wildfires are coming and you're in a moveable tiny house, you just get a truck, you attach it and go somewhere while the fires, you know, until it's safe to come back. I love that idea. You know, that creative solution to a very life-threatening problem. Sea level rise. Like, should we really be building right on ocean fronts when the land is changing there?

Perhaps we wanna look at that differently. So there's just a lot of that, like, how do you deal with the problem of impermanence and the need for structure in a home, in a built environment that I think tiny homes on wheels really offer in a way that you can't get with traditional building.

Less House More Moola Podcast (35:02)
Yeah, yeah, I was we've been talking a lot here about I'm in northern New Mexico and people are talking we are in you know, really high weather. We're in really high fire warning season. Snowpack is at a much lower percentage of average. We had a very dry winter. And so even here we're subject to wildfire risk.

Ellen Stone (35:18)
Mm.

Sure.

Less House More Moola Podcast (35:32)
even in the pinon juniper, area, we're not in, you know, high ponderosa or what have you. And, and so we've been, you know, and also there's the water running out question in the, in the West. so yeah, permanence, is maybe not a good fit for some areas anymore. And, and you're absolutely right. How do you think about your housing in terms of.

Ellen Stone (35:46)
Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (36:00)
moving to where the resources or the safety is. And I think there's a lot of large estimates about climate refugees in the future and maybe lots of us become climate refugees in the future. I would probably consider myself already a climate refugee having moved from a place where there were numerous hurricanes all the time. And so I was, you know, very concerned about

Ellen Stone (36:16)
Right.

right, in Florida.

Less House More Moola Podcast (36:30)
the safety of our home there all the time. And so I moved to a place where there aren't hurricanes, but instead there are wildfires. And so we're all facing some sort of challenge and you're absolutely right that, you know, having wheels is a way that you can move to a place as long as you can find a place to park it.

Ellen Stone (36:36)
Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

to park, which

is what I'm dedicated to figuring out. my goodness. I think that was like a little bit of a, do we just have a little earthquake? I think we just had a little earthquake. Wow, that was weird. So yeah, sometimes the earth below our feet is not stable. And if we are gonna have to move because of

Less House More Moola Podcast (37:03)
 Speaking of.

Ellen Stone (37:18)
lack of resources or because of safety or danger from the current place you have your home. People that are, you know, lower income don't, you know, if you invest your nest egg and have spent every last dollar to have something that you own, you can't pick that up and move it. And so your investment, you still have control over.

that investment if you can move it. So that just makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (37:53)
Yeah.

So let's talk more about who you're helping in San Diego and what that looks like.

Ellen Stone (38:02)
Sure. Tiny Home Central is looking at the overall kind of industry and how we can solve problems. And part of that was initially legalization, but then there's the how to actually onboard the tiny home now that it's legal. And so our current opportunity and offering

is helping folks put them in their backyards as an ADU because that's the legal option that exists in the city of San Diego. So I have a few clients that I'm working with right now to help them with that permitting and site improvement project management because when I did that in our backyard it was so confusing and a lot of the

construction partners that I brought in. You know, there's overlap. Plumbing is plumbing, pipes are pipes. But, you know, how it hooks up to a home and what does that look like? What is, you know, RV hookups for a home, right? Which is the way that that setup needs to be. All of that was...

complicated and required leadership that I didn't initially have and knowledge that I didn't initially have. that challenge that folks are up against in onboarding Tiny Homes on Wheels or Movable Tiny Homes as they're classified here in San Diego is what Tiny Home Central offers. And then we always find other

challenges that pop up too, and so we're happy to jump into those as well.

Less House More Moola Podcast (40:03)
Yeah, so you already referenced it earlier by saying that tiny homes on wheels are more affordable than an ADU. And we talked about them being movable, certainly in case of fire or other danger, but also in terms of if you're putting in a tiny home.

on someone else's property, then you don't have necessarily permanence guaranteed there either. So having it movable so you could potentially move it to somebody else's backyard is useful. Are there any other benefits to tiny homes on wheels as opposed to ADUs in San Diego that you can think of?

Ellen Stone (40:47)
Yeah, so well really quickly I want to point to something you mentioned briefly, which is if it's not working out in one backyard that you can leave and say like, no thanks. You have some empowerment and autonomy and still have home ownership. So I love that piece. The challenge is that there aren't enough places to park right now and there aren't enough typical homeowners that have developed.

their backyards as landing spaces. Like I look at it as like a dock, a land dock for your tiny house, like a houseboat would have a dock in a bay. So that's something that I'm also trying to solve, but it's hard because in the world of ADUs, there's a lot of knowledge and...

information out there and a lot of businesses that are available to help people put in an ADU. But people don't know that they could do it at a third of the cost, if not way less, if they're not buying the house too and they're gonna rent the pad or the dock, as it were. So there's...

that aspect of the autonomy and allowing yourself or having the opportunity to leave if it's not a good situation. Remind me the other part of the question, the larger question, I kind of went down.

Less House More Moola Podcast (42:24)
Yeah, my question

was, you know, what are other benefits of on wheels versus ADU? But I do want to just, you know, reiterate the point, right? I have had so many interesting neighbors over the years and how great it is that you can pick up. if you're, know, like there, there is no single family house that you can pick up and move if you have really bad neighbors. But if you have a tiny house on wheels.

Ellen Stone (42:49)
No. No.

You can't.

Less House More Moola Podcast (42:53)
You can move

around and how great that folks, so many people at Tiny Fest and other places are asking about putting an ADU in their backyard, right? They're thinking about it from a rental property or a family member or whatever. a dock for a tiny house on wheels in San Diego is so much more cost effective, right?

Ellen Stone (43:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I

mean, it just seems like a no-brainer to me that you could spend, you know, it depends on your site, the costs that you'll be looking at, but for ours, we were able to do the whole process, the permitting and the site improvement, the pad where you drive and park the tiny home onto. That was all done for $25,000.

And that includes the skirting of the unit, is required by the city and a sweet little deck that adds 80 square feet of additional living space. So if you're looking at kind of the estimates that I've heard lately for ADUs is 250,000 plus, sometimes up to a half a million to develop and compare that to $30,000 where

25 or $30,000 where you could start renting it right away and potentially earning, paying off your investment within a couple years and generating income after that. I mean, that's just like, why aren't people doing that? And even just in the long term kind of progression of their wealth generation.

Let's say they do want to actually have the unit in their backyard, but they can't afford to start there. So maybe that's a phased approach is rent the pad, invest as much as you can afford to, and then get yourself to that next space financially where you could then add the unit.

So I like that piece too, and I hope that more people take advantage of that. I'm actually, I've been going to city council meetings and giving public statements. It's something I geek out on. I have interns and I take them and teach them how to do it. And they're kind of like wowed that they get to be heard by community leaders that we have.

that right and that opportunity. And I keep saying to them, like, where's the incentive program? Where's the education to our community members that this could be a wealth generation pathway that doesn't exist to a lot of people in other types of built real estate structures.

Less House More Moola Podcast (46:03)
Stellar. Awesome.

Ellen Stone (46:04)
I know

like can we get a campaign? And you know, I'm a small startup so I don't I don't have those marketing dollars so I have to do it with you know, blood sweat and tears And the more we get our public Officials our elected officials out there kind of Singing that anthem that there are other ways to

to keep yourself even in your house because the mortgage is so expensive. That could also help you pay your mortgage. mean, it's just like, okay, let's do this.

Less House More Moola Podcast (46:50)
Yeah. So I hope that folks that are listening that are in a community where they don't yet have legal tiny homes on wheels are hearing you and your persistence when it comes to working with your local leadership. And so

What would you say to folks that are in communities where a tiny, where they would love to have a tiny house on wheels in their backyard, either for a family member or for wealth generation or, know, to live in and rent out the big house or whatever. And it's not yet a viable legal option. Talk a little bit about what you did in order to get, you know, legalization in your area, what it takes in a person to go through that journey and.

give them some boost of confidence and words of wisdom there.

Ellen Stone (47:47)
Sure. Sure. Well, I think, so the biggest thing is to get a group of people together because it can be exhausting to try and take on legalizing something or creating change in your community. So we were, you know, I consider myself very fortunate that we were able to find enough people to do all of that work.

The second piece is, so our elected officials have a lot of problems that they need to solve and housing is a huge one that they're being continuously and consistently faced with. And so when they can solve a problem, it looks really good to them.

It helps maybe keep them in office when when they're actually solving completely like like the life cycle of creating a pathway where there wasn't one so Being able to speak to that in such a way where they're gonna win is a huge part of it and and then there's a behind the scenes that has to happen where

For example, locally, one of our elected officials took it on and his chief of staff was a huge, he was the one that was having all those meetings behind the scenes, because we can only do so much from the public perspective. We can go to city council meetings with our signs and give our public statements and try and engage the press, which is another piece when you get.

newspaper articles or a story on the five o'clock news where everyone gets to see it and learns about what's possible and then they can put pressure on their representatives. There's kind of this, you have to look at all of these angles and put it all together and then hang in there and keep going to the city council meeting and learn.

Who are all the players? How does this all work? And I think there's a tendency to get angry and anger is fair. there's like, why is this so hard? But we also have to see that people are trying and we have to make, we have to find ways to work it out. And so if you can help other people win.

and even take credit for it. I don't care. I just want to be able to live tiny. You know, the selected official gets to take credit for it. Fine. Right? Those are all the kind of pieces that help a movement. And then of course the expertise from the building code and kind of that like governmental speak. THIA, the Tiny Home Industry Association.

has all of those tools. So we were able to bring them in with the example of the code that had been put in place in other communities, gave it to development land, you know, the land use folks locally that helped them also feel comfortable with a change in...

what is allowed as a permanent dwelling. So hopefully that's like a couple pieces. But I think the biggest part of that is having a group of people to share with, figuring out the terrain of what's the landscape that you're looking at, and then bringing in those people that understand how to work with the governmental.

agency and that piece. And then you have to really celebrate your wins too because that keeps the local group that you've organized feeling empowered and excited to hang in there. So that's just a few little things that we did.

Less House More Moola Podcast (52:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that you need to assume good intent of your elected leaders, right? Assume good intent of everybody that you're working with and not go in with, you know, frustration, but instead view it as a puzzle to be solved and be good at kind of influencing and organizing people and bringing people together and

helping them be excited about the progress that you make. so there's a lot of leadership qualities there, a lot of personal growth opportunities in there somewhere. And yeah, some persistence. then now that you've reached this point where you all do have legalization and now you're working on implementation and helping people get through the implementation.

Ellen Stone (53:15)
That's true.

Less House More Moola Podcast (53:32)
process and you look back, do you feel like so good about the about the meaningfulness of the change you brought to your community?

Ellen Stone (53:44)
Yeah, I think it's important and thank you for just the opportunity right now to remember and be grateful because I do sort of spend more time looking at the future and all the other problems that need to be solved. But I think that is really important to have gratitude for what...

our group was able to accomplish. Because it was, I mean, the legal, like the vote by our city council happened during COVID. And we just figured we would get put on hold during COVID. But it was, you know, movable tiny homes in your backyard was legalized in August of 2020. So that's, that's wild.

Less House More Moola Podcast (54:39)
Awesome. Well, Ellen, this was such a great conversation. I so appreciate, you know, your perspective and the length of time and how you kind of view tiny homes as this magical cure for some of the things that ail us on the environmental front, on the shortage of skilled labor front, on the shortage of housing front, like so many different areas of challenge where we see

Ellen Stone (54:40)
Yeah.

Less House More Moola Podcast (55:08)
you know, Tiny Homes as being a solution there and the work that you're doing every day to help others move in this direction. So where can listeners find you and, you know, track you down.

Ellen Stone (55:24)
Thank you. So my company Tiny Home Central can be found online at tinyhomecentral.org and that's T-I-N-Y-H-O-M-E-C-E-N-T-R-A-L, tiny home singular. Sometimes people put an S. And so our email is info @ tinyhomecentral.org and

We of course are on the socials and then there's also a group that we manage locally called Tiny House San Diego Facebook group that we're trying to kind of reinvigorate because we need that community. We need that. There's still so many problems to solve and if we don't have each other to lean on and to work with.

and to utilize all the different skills that no one of us has. We need that community space so folks can find us there as well.

Less House More Moola Podcast (56:35)
 we'll have those links in the show notes. Ellen, thank you so much for your time.

Ellen Stone (56:39)
Thank you so much for this opportunity.