Tiny Homes: Revolutionising Rural Development

John Riggs, an architect and rancher, shares his vision for creating sustainable communities that preserve open range land. He discusses his project, Mare Pasture, which aims to develop a small, walkable, and sustainable community on ranch land in Arizona. The community would include various types of housing, such as tiny homes, and would preserve a significant portion of the land for grazing pastures and vineyards. Riggs is passionate about leaving the land in better shape for future generations and believes that this model can be replicated in other ranching areas.

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Transcript

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It takes a brave and independent mindset to go tiny. If you are trying to figure out your tiny pivot, this podcast is here to inspire and connect you with the other unconventional, gritty, inspirational people within this community. I'm Laura Lynch, your tiny house friend and host. On this show, we are always going to come back to money because as a financial planner, this is the question I hear the most. How do I make this work for me financially? Well, that's my jam, so jump in, let's go. New episodes drop every Thursday. Well, John Riggs, welcome to Less Housemore Moolah podcast. I'm super excited for us to have a great conversation today. You first came on my radar. think it was a Facebook. Holly had posted something about Mayor Pasture on the Facebook. And so I sent a message and so I'm super delighted for you to share your story. Welcome. Thanks for being here. Well, thank you, Laura. I give you just a brief history of myself. I grew up on a ranch in southeastern Arizona, ranch land that my great -grandparents settled back in 1879. I came to Tucson, Arizona, where I live now. I went to the University of Arizona, graduated from the College of Architecture, and have been practicing architecture since... my gosh. 1970. But I've always had a passion for the ranch land and trying to save the view shed, the wildlife quarters, the vegetation and the ranching lifestyle. And so that's what led to what we're going to discuss today. Yeah, that is so interesting because I think some of us don't really have a good touch with the land that we grew up on. I grew up on, you know, 10 acres of forest and in a beautiful, beautiful place. And I don't think I really appreciated it that much until looking back, I say, wow, that valley that I grew up in was really beautiful. tell us about what you learned about the land that you grew up on. Well, I did the I did. I did the same thing. Just what you just what you mentioned, I I every morning woke up looking directly at the Cherokee Mountains. And it wasn't until I spent a year or two in Tucson, about two hours away, going to the the U of A and went back home to visit. that's when I realized how absolutely gorgeous they are. And there are areas in southern Arizona that years ago were the same as our ranch land is now. Just no development, nothing there. Just open grassland hills rolling up into the mountains. And today, if you go back to some of those areas, there's scattered houses all over and it just, the viewshed is destroyed. But more than that, the wildlife corridors, because people put up fences around their property and then the vegetation is different and it just really destroys the native natural rangeland. so I, a number of years, this has been probably 20, 25 years that I have been working on coming up with an idea that I think would work in not only my family's ranch land, but we'll work in other ranch lands. And it seems counterproductive, but the idea is to develop a small community, walkable, sustainable community. And the concept is this, or the idea is this. On, let's say, a 10 ,000 acre ranch, this is in southern Arizona. I don't know if the zoning is the same or similar, but I'm guessing it probably is. But in Southern Arizona, in Cochise County, the zoning is one house per four acres. So on a 10 ,000 acre ranch, I mean, that would be horrible, but you could build 2 ,500 homes. But it would totally destroy the view shed. wildlife corridors, vegetation, all of that. And would not provide a sense of community and people getting together and, you know, enjoying life. So my idea was to take that, it wouldn't be this large, but take the number of houses that could be built on a ranch and condense it down into a small, walkable, sustainable community. And then, in the case of say a 10 ,000 acre ranch, you'd probably preserve 9 ,000 to 9 ,500 acres. And depending on how large your ranch is or who your neighbors are, you could possibly preserve more than that. And what we were looking at in our case was preserving about 150 ,000 ranch land acres. Plus another 150 ,000 were involved with the State Land Department, with the Bureau of Land Management, with the Forest Service, and with the Cherokee National Monument. So the idea... We worked for three years. met with my family once a month for three years and we got down to the very next to the last meeting and the idea got kind of kicked off the table and I'm still not quite sure why. But I not going to give up, haven't given up. And so I took the idea to another piece of property that I have that's about 1100 acres. and doing a model community that I believe could be replicated in other ranching areas. Not that it would be the same community, just a rubber stamp, but the idea could be replicated in other ranching areas. And depending on what the economic driver is of that area, in this area, happens that where I'm 1100 acres now, happens to be very close to quite a number of vineyards and wineries. And in Arizona, this area that the Mayor Pasture is the name of the property, what I want to develop, it is close to quite a number of vineyards and wineries. And in Arizona, about 75 to 90 % of the wine that's made in Arizona is made from grapes grown right near the Mirpach. So, I mean, relatively close, some very close, some a little distance away. But that's, that's, in general, the concept. Yeah, I think that you have really targeted what is a key pain point, perhaps, in this country, and that is the need to Preserve and take care of the natural environment while also providing housing because our population continues to grow and those 2 interests seem to be at odds a lot and they're at odds because we have this expectation of of spread and having so much space needed for each single family residence or what have you. So. really great to hear about your idea of sort of condensing and yet providing housing while also preserving so much of the ranch land and the watershed and the animal habitat and corridors. So what has made you so passionate about this? Certainly you had a great career in architecture and you have this family ranch land, but you're really trying to create something that can impact greater than your family and perhaps be a widespread trend. What has made you so passionate about creating this model? I can remember over and over and over my dad saying to me, to my brothers and brother and sister and I, we don't really own this land, even though we do, but we're just caretakers. And our job is to to make this land better, leave it in better shape than when we inherited it. And that's a big part of what I, the reason for this. The other part is I just, and maybe this comes from being an architect, but it just really disturbs me to see some of the development that just, there's gotta be a better way. And so much land is just wasted and destroyed by a lot of the development that you can see now. And if this could be condensed into a small walkable community where people can visit with each other, walking from their home to the grocery store and back or whatever, it just... needs to provide a sense of community and not just one lot after another lot after another lot after another lot. I just want to do something that will leave this better for the next generations. if we don't start doing something now, my fear is it's going to be too late. There's still a lot of open native rangeland, but if we don't start thinking about it and don't start doing something about it, it's going to be used up and wasted. We have less than 30 years to provide. Now I've forgotten the number. It's either 2 billion or 3 billion more people on this earth. And we need to stop thinking about. just today, but think about tomorrow too. What are we going to leave our children and what are we going to leave our grandchildren, our great grandchildren? I really want to do something that would help them down the road so they can enjoy what I enjoyed growing up. I couldn't have had a better life growing up. I wish I could have raised my kids that way, but there was no architectural work two hours away from Tucson. Yeah. So now, and that's a little bit different now because with the internet and working from home and all of that, I probably could. Yeah. So on Mare Pasture, and Mare is like the horse, -A -R -E, pasture .com, which we're going to have linked in the show notes. is a breakdown or a map or a plot map of the development that you are working on creating. So 1 ,100 acres on that land, correct? And so how much of it is densely populated housing and how much of it is open range? I would say there's about, I think there are Actually, with the tiny home villages, there are on the mare pasture pretty close to 2500 residential units. And that could be a single family home. It could be a tiny home. It could be an apartment. It could be a condo. And about 60 to 70 percent of the land is left open. Now, some of that Some of that is grazing land, grazing pastures for grass -fed beef operation. Some of that is vineyard land. But for the most part, a good portion of the property is left undisturbed. I would say totally undisturbed, probably 40%. Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned the tiny house villages, cause that's obviously, you know, what we talk about a lot on this podcast. Why did you decide to bring tiny homes into this picture? I have been looking for something that would really help start the mare pasture development. And I believe that there are, there are two areas where, that can happen. One is a vineyard. And there are about 120 acres of land set aside for vineyards. That could be one vineyard or it could be 10 vineyards. I'm very flexible about that. But the land where the vineyards are located on the master plant has been tested for growing grapes. that got set aside first. I didn't want to wind up putting housing or commercial or education or whatever on land that's better used for vineyards, especially because that's critical in this area. And then the tiny homes actually, you know, that idea came from my oldest daughter. said, dad, why don't you think about tiny homes? That might be something. And I think that's because of the the trend in tiny homes was kind of gaining some ground. And so I did, I looked into it and actually had conversations with a tiny home manufacturer in Phoenix. And the more I've looked into it, the more I'm convinced that that's something that could happen quickly. And it would start by people who already have tiny homes. could bring them to the property and rent the site. One of the next phases would be tiny homes built on the property and whether the land would be rented or sold, I'm flexible with that as well. the other thing that has really kind of motivated the tiny homes and more just living in a rural area is I working with a writer who lives in California, used to live in Tucson, lives in California. And she's in the younger generation, has been visited the Mayor Pastor two or three times and just very, very energized by being on that land and not being inside a crowded community. so I, and what I'm getting from her is that the younger generation would like to be free to move around. They would like to be back in nature or connected to nature somehow. And so I think a tiny home for the younger generation is less expensive. It could be moved around. I think that makes sense. The older generation, my generation who are retiring, I'm not going to retire. I don't want to retire. I absolutely love what I do. But there in fact is one couple who has retired from jobs in the Phoenix area. They have purchased a tiny home and are ready to move it to the mare pasture as soon as I can get it ready. So I think, you know, at some point I think people just get enough of the traffic that's just insane. all the crowded shopping and all of that. So I think there is a market for the older generation that are retiring. The middle market, the people that are still working, I honestly believe that as bad as COVID was, I think it changed some things. And the one thing it changed was working remotely. Obviously, there's pluses and minuses to that. But if somebody really wants to keep the job they have and would like to move to a rural area, as long as that rural area has good internet service, they can do that. And so I think there's a market there. I don't know how large that market is, but I think there is. something there. And then of course, there are people in the area that are not able to find housing. It's been really tough and either to purchase or rent. And so I think this is an opportunity for them as well. That's amazing. It seems like that you have hit on the point where if you build it, they will come in terms of, know, tiny house. parking and then, you know, housing. And then from there, you can really build out based on passion, based on preservation, based on caring for nature and preserving, and then also sort of picking up on those key attributes in your area of the vineyards and the cattle ranching and all of that. So bringing all of those pieces together. And you're absolutely right. There's about 40 % of folks in tiny houses who are retired. There's about 40 % of people in younger generations. And there are 40 % like me who are in middle age who have pivoted their career to remote work. They're tired of the corporate ladder. They want to either start their own business, be a consultant or work virtually so that they can be more back to nature. Middle aged people are sending their kids off to college. So they're becoming empty nesters and they have this opportunity to downsize and leverage some of that home equity that they have to build some financial resilience for the future, which was, you know, kind of our path, me and my husband. So I think you have definitely hit on the point of all of the different generations that can come together and, and enjoy and appreciate what you're creating. Well, I'm ready to go. Well, that's great. So let's talk about your time frame. So when are you expecting the tiny house village to be open? Well, I am. I believe that the one of the first one of the first things that needs to happen is to get approval from the county for a master development plan. And that's probably a six month process. And so I'm thinking that that that process can start any time now. could be done by this next spring or early summer. And the other big factor with getting the next step from that is funding, investors or funding of some sort to get something started. with the vineyard, with the tiny homes, less capital needed than say building condominiums or apartments or something like that. But those certainly could come not too long after that. it's part of what's been kind of holding things up is I'm still practicing architecture and You still have a day job. have quite a bit going on, the mare pasture is not going to go away. I'm determined to get it started. I would say by early summer of next year, we'll have something going there. That's so good. So what are all the partners that you're looking for at this juncture in order to make it move forward? What do those investors look like? What are those vineyard folks look like? Who are you looking for right now to help fund and move this forward? Well, let's start with the easy one, the vineyards. I don't know because I have not reached out. to any of the vineyard owners in California, but with the fires and everything going on there, I'd be really surprised if I wouldn't be able to find one or two or three vineyard owners that would like to move or expand or whatever to get that going. So that's one area that I'm looking at. about to dive into. The other is... I think it, I think it, I need, I need, what I would really like to find is someone in the younger generation that has access to, to funding, has interest in development that can kind of take this over or, or, or be involved after I'm out of here. And I'm, I'm not going anywhere soon, but I won't. I won't be around in another 50 years. So, you know, hopefully it won't take that long to get this developed, but someone that has the kind of the same interest and same passion I have about preserving open range land and understands the concept of this, that could join me, get behind it and move this forward. Is this a formal job posting that you're putting out there into the podcast? I have not done that. No. Yes. But are you looking for a hire? Are you looking for a, do you have a job opportunity there for someone to? I, you know, I haven't, I haven't really, I haven't really dived into that very deeply. I, the one thing that I have done is I have set up a, a nonprofit called the Brannock Institute. Brannock was my great grandfather's first name, the Brannock Institute. And the two primary goals for that, one is to research, guide, help promote projects like the mare pasture and others that would preserve open range land. The second goal is to encourage the younger generation to either get into agriculture or stay in agriculture. Because like I mentioned before, we've got a lot more people to feed coming up. And we just, need to be thinking ahead and doing it correctly and not just destroying things as we provide food and provide housing. And so that institute and the board members on that institute, I think will help generate someone that I believe, someone that can join me with the development of the Mayor -Pastor project. Awesome. So it sounds like that you are, you know, making progress in terms of the impact that you want to have both on the land and creating development opportunities and you've got some folks on your team that you're working with and things are coming along. So tell us, know, kind of what is your vision of the impact of mare pasture? What would you like mare pasture to accomplish? boy. I would love if the mare pasture became what I vision it to be is a model that could be replicated in other ranching areas. You know, if I'm able to preserve land in southeastern Arizona, that's one thing, but that's a small part of the ranch land around the country. And my vision, the ultimate goal would be to see these small communities in other ranching areas. not, and this wouldn't happen in all areas because of the terrain, but in, in the area where I would like to, to see this, it's not visible from any state highway or, or so forth. There's a, there's a state highway from Wilcox, Arizona, out to the Cherokee National Monument, which is about to become hopefully a national park. And I don't want anyone getting on that highway from Wilcox out to that national monument or park to see the development, the mayor pastoral or any other development like that. I want it tucked behind hills or something so that it's not totally visible. But And I would like to see that happen in other ranching areas, although some are pretty level and it's going to be seen if they do that. anyway, that would be my major goal is to see this replicated in other ranching areas. So John, that sounds like a really important vision of creating this model and, you know, leaving the development away from the visibility of the highway and sort of creating this little hidden nook of a space. So I love that. think that's a very beautiful vision that people will resonate with. For those who want to follow along with how things are going or maybe have some partnership that they could offer to you, how do folks find you or the mare pasture? I would go to meripasture .com and there's a tab on there. I believe it's labeled contact. Click on that and put in any information, any questions, anything that you might be interested in. And I'll receive that email through the website developed through Squarespace. So that email will... will come to me and I'll be happy if I get so many emails that I have to stop doing a project architecturally. Maybe. Yeah, we would all like to stop our paid work and work on our passion work only. Awesome. Well, John, thank you for sharing the story of the Mayor Pasture and for sharing your family story and your passion around this. topic of preserving the land while also creating these tightly connected communities. We really appreciate you sharing all of this with us. Well, thank you, Laura. I enjoyed it. Thanks for doing this. It was fun. Hey, thank you for taking the time to listen to Less House More Moolah. I have another free resource on my website for you, the Unconventional Values Quiz. In just two minutes, you can pinpoint your style of freedom seeker, security guardian, adventure enthusiast, or community builder. Check it out at thetinyhouseadvisor .com. And one more thing, podcasts don't have algorithms like social media does. They only grow by word of mouth and reviews. If this podcast is helpful to you, would you please post a review on your podcast app and tell a friend who is trying to live a values -based life? It would totally make my day.