Achieving Van Life on a Budget: Tips and Tricks

Isaiah Davis, founder of WanderVans, shares his expertise on achieving van life on a budget. He discusses the benefits of tiny living, including financial empowerment and a sense of ownership. Isaiah provides tips on how to start van life on a budget, such as buying a used van, doing DIY conversions, and utilizing portable power units. He also mentions the potential tax benefits of installing solar panels on your van. Isaiah emphasizes the importance of exploring public lands and learning about different cultures and histories while living on the road.

For full show notes and more information visit: https://bit.ly/3SUdwXs

Go to AltAmericanDream.com

Transcript

0:05

It takes a brave and independent mindset to go tiny. If you are trying to figure out your tiny pivot, this podcast is here to inspire and connect you with the other unconventional, gritty, inspirational people within this community. I'm Laura Lynch, your tiny house friend and host. On this show, we are always going to come back to money because as a financial planner, this is the question I hear the most. How do I make this work for me financially? Well, that's my jam, so jump in, let's go. New episodes drop every Thursday. Isaiah Davis, welcome to Less House, More Moolah podcast. I'm super excited that we get to have this conversation today about how to achieve van life, because I'm sure there are one or two folks out there who are feeling like there might be something in their way, keeping them from the direction that they want to go in. So I'm excited for you to sort of clear out those boundaries for folks. Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I'm a big advocate for van life, but I mean, you know, there's all these different flavors of tiny living and I have experienced some of those flavors in RVs, just not camper vans. And I, yeah, I intend to live in a van myself one day. So far it's only been trailers and such. So. I look forward to talking about it some too with everything we've learned with so many people we've worked with. Yeah, awesome. So talk to us a little bit about your history and your time in tiny life and that flavor and what you learned there. Okay. It's interesting because I think a lot of people shy away from tiny living because of like finances and kind of fear of, you know, that's kind of for somebody else or, my city doesn't really accommodate tiny houses or who can, I don't know how to build a tiny home or build a van. So many issues. There's so many issues. one of those things is definitely finances. Interestingly enough, what drove me into that tiny living and living in a trailer with a friend for three years, two or three years, I can't remember. was finances. And so we got to, we were both just young tradesmen, right, and trying to live on our own in the California Bay area. And we found like a trailer park to go live at. And it was fun. The neighbors were fun, but they there's in California, there's a limit. Now, I don't think people can create new I know people don't even like to trailer parks anymore, but I want to paint an accurate picture. I don't think in California, you're allowed to open up like new trailer parks that are like permanent living situations. I'm sure there's some exceptions to that or some loopholes, but overall those opportunities become less and less. So even to park a trailer was pretty expensive and we bought a trailer for like $6 ,000 in cash and like from. some questionable source and it all worked. We had some repairs to work on. That's kind of my first experience repairing an RV too. But it all worked out and we got to save some money. He got married. I got married. I went from that trailer to marrying my wife. We lived in a house with some friends for two, for one year and then went back to like tiny living again with our kids. We immediately had kids. And did that for one more year and now we have like another hi hiatus from that, I suppose. But, you know, one of our goals is to get in a van with the four of us and probably do some schooling on the road and living on the road for at least a few years. I could, I could talk about that forever. Like the reasons why and whatnot, but there it is. That's my experience with tiny living. Yeah, I love that. We have a. We have a camper too. I grew up camping. did a lot of tent camping. My parents had a pop -up camper. All the stories I can tell of trying to get the canvas back underneath the lid of a pop-up camper. And I think that, you know, that experience really lends itself towards helping you understand, you know, what it is to live more simply or have less stuff around you and what you essentially really truly need. Often people are on this podcast that have done some back packing, which is an even more intense level of downsize. so what besides kind of living more simply or having less stuff around you, did you learn through that time and how did you sort of shift your perspective through those different tiny living opportunities? know, it was, I moved out of my parents' house fairly young, but you know, moving into like a house with friends or even family friends, whatever, right? Like nothing was really my space with that first trailer with my friend at the time who's now my brother -in -law. So I married his sister. He and I lived in there and I think what I took from it was like real ownership of this thing, because I, I wasn't like just living with in a friend's house, renting a room, which is what I had done before that. And, that was great. It was still a fun situation, but you know, I'm, I'm just like treading water or walking on thin ice all the time, not wanting to take up too much space in the fridge, things like that. What tiny living did, I told you, I had that repair. it gave me like a sense of ownership. and a sense of empowerment. And so this is a small van. This is not your typical van life van. And we have a woman in here having us do a heater install just because, I mean, she did basically everything else, but this heater installed to maintain warranty, you had to have somebody like certified do it, right? So we're doing the heater install for them and her van is not conventional. And it's like all from scratch. like closet organizers are herself. She did the walls herself. She did the insulation herself. She did the power with her and a friend and they figured everything out. She started to get a little burnt out on it in the end, but I could see like the sense of pride she had in her stuff. I'm kind of getting long winded, but I think like the biggest takeaway from like tiny women living is like the sense of empowerment. It can give people the sense of ownership. and it's almost like a sense of purpose, right? Like she's building her home. She's going to live in this van for two years and it's a transit connect. And she's just going to be kind of drifting. She doesn't have a job at the moment. She's just like embarking on this. So she wants to find a way to make some money on the road and sustain herself, but she's going to be living frugal and small. And, she, you know, like when I look at her van and kind of. how things were makeshift, like her bed into a seat also. it's like a lot of ingenuity. So she got to flex a lot of creativity. She got to tough out the learning curves. And it just showed a lot of grit. And she's coming from having been in Boston for 10 years. So now she's with me in the Bay Area getting a heater done. So that's the big takeaway, I think, is what you learn. by necessity and what you had to do yourself and all those things. Yeah, listeners have probably heard me say a thousand times, if you can build your house, you can do absolutely anything. And I think that's the great learning that we get from a DIY project like that, because building your own living space seems like such a restricted or gated thing. But then when you do it yourself, you realize, nothing is really that restricted or gated. I can certainly you know, power through the learning and, you know, explore my creativity here and do something that I never imagined that I would do. And where does that take you in terms of where do you take your career? Where do you take your family? You know, or whatever it probably helped you think about how you raise your kids and, you know, all kinds of things. It's very interesting, you know, how that shifts your mindset in so many ways. Yeah. Yeah. The empowerment. and the knowledge. Also, if you build it to your point, you're going to know how to fix everything. You know how to get into everything. So that's pretty cool. And I love how you said if you can build your home, you can do anything. That's exactly how I feel about it. You really hit the nail on the head. Awesome. So I'm sure in that RV situation, you've probably encountered some limitations that kind of made you sparked your curiosity or creativity in the work that you're doing now. So what are some of the limitations that you ran into and what are the solutions that you are kind of thinking about or implementing now? It's interesting. They're different for everybody. think for my experience, it was like. the sense of what amenities needed to look like. so I do offer one of my favorite parts, aside from building the van, is like doing a needs analysis for people. So it's that problem or like these conflicts that can arise with the decision of downsizing, whether it's into a foundation to tiny home, tiny home on wheels, camper van, big class ARV bus, whatever, schooly, right? there's, I, I'm really into like the fiscal implementation of everything. So when people are like, I want to live in it full time. Usually, you know, they want to go stealth with, so they can kind of park inconspicuously and not feel like they're going to get booted out of an area. though. You know, I think it's becoming more welcomed in a lot of places, so it's not as much of a concern. And then they get their gym membership and then sometimes, you know, they, they want like a shower in their van and you're going to talk like, if you're talking hot water, some people want hot water, but don't want propane. And that gets to be very costly to have an electrically off -grid supported hot water heater. and water pump and everything for this shower that's going to take up a ton of space. So space and money, right? I would say, let's put a small pressurized water heated water heater on the back door of the van that opens up. You have a shower curtain drop down and you can take your showers outside when you don't have time to go to the gym or if you're out and about and traveling and you don't need that indoor shower. And I think that can take like a lot of people that haven't thought about it or lived it kind of off guard, right? Take them off guard. I don't want to shower outside or it just doesn't seem that practical and it really, really is. And so I'll constantly like see kind of push people's limits because I think it'll pay off in the end and it'll be more rewarding for them to have that space back and not spend as much money. But those are, you know, I guess hurdles for me, I like to be outside anyways. I think I blamed like my fitness on my tiny living situation at it for a time, but it was honestly just working too much and then, eating out because of these long days. And, I didn't like washing dishes in the small space. I don't mind cooking and washing dishes, but when you didn't, when I didn't have good water pressure, right? So that's another thing I guess I'm. passionate about is just making sure everything that they do have, because you don't have as much, works really well. So our sink was just like, it was so hard to wash dishes and it'd fill up really fast. And then I'd have no place to pull the dirty dishes out. So I guess that could have been like a two bachelor problem too. Awesome. Yeah. I think that there are so many. So many things that we have some preconceived notions about, right? About what we're supposed to expect from a convenience standpoint or from a amenity standpoint. if you go small, you're going to have to make some trade -offs there and figuring out what is top priority for you and what you can't possibly do without and exploring things that maybe you just haven't even really thought that. significantly about a lot of people have houses with outdoor showers because they love, love showering outdoors. that's even in the tiny home community. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, well in the regular home community. right. Right. Like it's a, it's it's a privilege to have an outdoor shower in that case. Right. Yes, it is. That's awesome. So, you've alluded to it obviously, but let's talk more about WanderVans and exactly the work you're doing. Okay, so WanderVans was started in Boise by two other people. Pretty cool guys that kind of, so my family and my friends family started a business together renting out trailers and it was more, it was not supposed to be a business endeavor. We're working professionals, we have kids, we have all these things going on, but we were like, hey, let's buy a trailer that we can't afford and then, but let's split it in half. take the edge off and put it on a third party lead generator like outdoorsy, which is like Airbnb for RVs. So we bought the trailer and it did like fairly well and paid for itself just fine. You know, cause it, the payments are $300 a month. And then we sold the trailer and bought like two more. then we saw Wonder Vans. We were their first franchised location. And so we opened a franchise location here in Livermore, California, San Francisco Bay area. And we haven't really turned back since. So my journey with camper vans started with rentals. And then as I started to geek out on how we can make these rentals better, give our customers a better experience, and then also out of necessity, with needing to. make more money, had to learn how to do things like this heater install and become certified. And as I install more stuff, customers show me all their ideas and there's this whole onslaught of information. But you know, that sense of empowerment that building a tiny home or van gives you. Having a business gives you that too. So I just kept running with it and running with it and started to really learn. and get to know a lot of the vendors, learn all the product offerings out there, kind of make my own opinion on value in accordance with what people are spending. And so now we're doing full builds for people. We're doing partial installs, some rescue projects. Rescue projects have like a lot of risk associated with them. I hate to say it, but we do have to be a little bit choosy. Usually to, you know, if, if you're not, I don't want to say if you're not sure, don't do something. You should always try to push your boundaries some, but if you don't think that you'll have three times the amount of time that you need, then you probably shouldn't start like learning an entire electrical diagram. and have somebody like me do the electrical and you do everything else. Or I'll cut in a giant hole in your roof and put in your air conditioner or whatever. Right. So it all just started that way. And it's all just culminated and culminated to where now I get to travel around to these Vans shows and meet a bunch of small business owners that make manufactured projects, products that's small scale, maybe to order. And I get to align those things with our customers. you know, they, people don't have a lot of time to do a ton of research. So it's kind of like the first thing you see you're kind of set on, but maybe, maybe there's just something that suits you a little bit better and is more cost effective. And so I like to really like bring that value to people. I really, really enjoy that aspect of it. Awesome. And. Earlier we had mentioned that there may be some obstacles for folks and you mentioned one of the big ones, right, which is budget. so I know that you are really so passionate about helping people figure out how to do van life without a huge budget. So let's talk about that a little bit about what are the key ways that someone could go. make that huge life shift without having, you know, $300 ,000 to trick out a, you know, a well engineered machine. Yeah. So if you're, it's even easier if you're going to live in it, in my opinion, because you're replacing so many living expenses. So that's probably step one. If you want a camper van, are you talking van life or are you talking like, your parents or grandparents RV that they use on the weekends? But. Let's say we're talking van life because that's, let's be honest, it's just a little bit cooler. then yeah, get rid of your daily driver, get rid of your apartment and buy a used van with 40 ,000 miles on it. get a, a cargo van. I also, just so people know, cause there's a huge discussion about where people really stress, should I get a Mercedes? Should I get a Ford? Should I get a Dodge? And they're all very good. vehicles that will last a long time. I would say Ford is probably my favorite considering a huge number of factors. So, but you're good to get whatever you find a good deal on and get that on a payment. Replace your $600 car payment with a five to $600 van payment. Do anything you can by yourself. Go to Lowe's. Find credible sources for how to insulate the van. and you're probably gonna spend $3 ,000 minimum putting in your walls, ceiling, and floor. you like adjust your expectations down a little bit to some raw plywood, maybe you stain it and finish it, put some oil on it, and then just do everything you can yourself. you can, I honestly, I think for... Okay, if you don't need an air conditioner this year, right? Say you're starting towards the end of summer, you're in or you're in a cooler climate. If you don't need an air conditioner, the whole world is your oyster because instead of spending a ton of money on electrical, you can and and and labor to have someone like me install your electrical, you can buy like the portable power unit and just be totally set. And there's videos on how to wire that into your car battery. Your car will charge it. Solars there. You put a solar panel, you can glue a solar panel on top of your van and run a cable down into that. That's pre -made from the solar panel into that power bank, right? You could really be out of there for like less than $10 ,000 when you're done and you can move in before you're done. A lot of people do that too. And sort of phasing the install, having a professional do some things that you're not sure about. is probably a good balance and a decent investment so that things work well. But yeah, the DIY, right? And call a local upfitter, tease, like let them do something small and then pick their brain when you meet them, when you drop off and pick it up. And I think that's like a really good way to get expert advice and make sure you're going the right direction with things. But I mean, it's all pretty. basic, it's just, you know, on Instagram, we see $200 ,000 rigs and you can have a really beautiful one yourself if you take some time for not a lot of coin, you know. I love that. It's actually, you know, the whole sweat equity piece of things can make such a big difference. If you're just willing to, you know, learn how to do things yourself, it not only does it. help you save money. It also allows you to your point, live in the thing while you're doing it. So saving money on your other roof that maybe you were paying for. And then in the meantime, you're building skillset where literally you feel more confident at other areas of your life and you'll be able to pay it forward to others. So when you encounter someone else who's interested in the lifestyle, you can, you know, share what you learn. Just that amazing experience that we you know, gather along the way can be so valuable. This is why I'm such a DIY advocate even on the tiny home front too is because, you know, every, every bit of I would say financial security that I have built has been in a DIY capacity, right? Houses in foreclosure, build a tiny house yourself. always being in the middle of a project. I've never lived in a finished house hardly ever in my life. It's always been under construction. And yet that is, you know, that, is your own sweat equity going into creating resilience in a financial way, but also in a competency way. So I love those ideas. It's an interesting shift to like, you know, if you're talking about putting in that sweat equity, it's like we put, a lot of our best selves forward at work and we learn so that we can perform for our clients or for our bosses. this, not, I still do that, but when you do do it for yourself, the reward just tends to be greater. It just tends to be greater inherently and financially. And it's just, If you can do it for someone else, you can afford yourself that time too. And then you start tending your own garden, right? That was one of the things about like tiny living is you kind of, your care goes like external and you're way less inclined to sit on a couch and watch TV when your couch is a bed and your TV is this big. it just, you know, there's so many, there's so many benefits to like tiny living, which tends to coincide with like doing things yourself, I can't really evangelize that enough. And that's something that I did not expect. I thought I was making a sacrifice to try to save some money. And I think it will continue to pay me in ways that I'll figure out later on. My girls, I have two daughters, their expectations for material need will be pre -adjusted to my new expectations, right? And then they can make that decision for themselves. But At least they'll, they'll know that this is a possibility too. That's sort of the idea. Yeah, for sure. I mean, your interest in tiny living parlayed you into the work you're doing today. Right. Yeah, it was, yeah. And so like that, right. That second bout that we lived in a trailer, that was also just like support this business that we're trying to start. That's not, it's definitely not honest. It's not supporting us. Okay. but I was, and now I'm living with my in -laws and, we're building an ADU with them. We'll live with them for a couple of years, pay rent at a good price. Right. And, I will probably embark again and, and our, we'll build ourselves like a demo van. want to do YouTube videos. I want to give people credible how to stuff because everybody wants to be an influencer. I don't, but everybody wants to, a lot of people want to be an influencer. And, I think a lot of good has come out of that, but there's a lot of conflicting information that can't be resolved. unless you really know what's going on in the background. So try to give people a free, credible source in the future on how to build these things. So, before we. kind of exit this how to do van life on the budget. You mentioned to me solar tax credits and we both acknowledge, right? We are not tax professionals, right? But in your experience, how have you seen this work for folks in a van putting solar on their van in terms of the tax benefits? Yeah, I love it because usually when people come to me for a quote, we design something, And then I give them the price and then they're like, okay. And then I'm like, Hey, you'll get, you'll probably be able to get this much back. And so the way it works is if your van is a primary or secondary residence and to qualify for that needs to have sleeping quarters, cooking, and a toilet area. That's really it. even shower isn't specified, right? So heater, conditioner, sleeping, cooking, toilet, then you can. to my knowledge claim it as a primary secondary residence i s irs form like 5249 or something but almost any tax professional would be familiar with this at this point as a solar tax credit or residential clean energy act credit something something along those lines and right now it's at 30 credit meaning if you spend six thousand dollars in solar and electrical storage being batteries, wiring, controllers, extra alternators, say, and it already qualifies as a residence, then you'll get 30 % of that back as a tax credit the next year. And then you can use that to pay off your van, right? Or pay further into it and get some principal taken away. And so that I think I try to use that to like sugarcoat things for people and it usually gets a smile at least or a big question mark on their face. Like they think they think I'm crazy that the government would allow for it to be called the second residence with solar tax credit. But sure enough, I mean, a lot of people have done it and I have spoken with some tax professionals, which I encourage people to do on their own as well. And then we also want to touch on any thoughts you have about remote work resources. So people obviously in van life are are trying to figure out how they're going to maybe just connect from their in -person job. And sometimes that could be moved to remote. But what are other remote work resources? Okay. So for, making money on the road, right? If everybody knows if you have a big platform on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube, you can probably monetize some products or sponsorships, and make some money that way. I don't think that that's practical for most people, but there's remote .co and other websites that I know of. I've seen. that have remote specific jobs. So that can be remote healthcare, healthcare work. My wife has brought up like house sitting in various like areas of the country and you can get paid to live in someone else's home for two months at a time and just kind of bounce around doing that. Or if you just need a break from van life, I think that's like a huge benefit that can kind of like repad your finances a little bit and give you a break. I mean, the flexibility on that's really great. I worked on a van for a woman that wanted to do like, traveling hospice care, I believe. And, and then another person that did gig work as like an athletic trainer. And so, you know, as long as your mind is open, since your finances have shrunk, you don't need to make$130 ,000 a year. So there's a lot of opportunities there. And I think people can find inspiration by going on like remote .co and if you're a certified, childcare professional, you can go to cities and spend a couple of days helping people that only need help for a couple of days, or maybe their childcare professional got sick or something. And so I think Obviously remote jobs are great. If you don't want to be that tied down, you can do gig work that aligns with your interests and skills. And you may be surprised how much of that there is. Yeah. I think that's some great tips for sure. We all, have kind of a programming around, you know, having our six figure job or, you know, our five figure job, whatever it is, and, you know, kind of being stuck in that, you know, salary mentality. And yet at the same time, we're, our entire economy is in transition and work looks very differently in a lot of, in a lot of capacities. And so figuring out ways that you can apply your, you know, skills and and education and work ethic to other areas and bring in different sources of income can be very freeing because then you can have a lifestyle that you appreciate. maybe it's a little bit of a risk to figure out all the pieces of that. And that has to align with your feeling of your comfort with risk personally, and also what kind of safety nets or fallbacks you might have access to. family or other things, but in any case, there is work out there that we can do that doesn't require us to show up Monday through Friday from eight to five and punch a clock. Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm all for it. And, you know, I think we start small, start small for tiny living. Like, you know, just try some gig work on the side before you quit your job, build your van while you live at your parents' house or a friend's house for two months. don't have, even if you're risk adverse, you don't have to just dive in the deep end. Yeah, I just wanna like, not everyone's gonna move into a van or a tiny home, but I do want people that kind of wish they were that person to feel enabled to do that. Yes, so good. So let's go back to your personal goals earlier. You mentioned the ADU. You're going to live in that for a couple of years and then you want to hit the road with your family. What does that vision look like for you? OK, I love public land. We're all landowners, OK? And it's there for us and we have amazing management agencies. Wow, you got me jumping out of my chair. We have like amazing management agencies from the BLM, National Forests, National Parks. That's what it looks like. It looks like me visiting all this land I own and learning. mean, I can go to Shasta County, right? And just find these old cabins in the woods that were old, like logging offices and then kind of picture like who lives there. bought a book, written by one of the last remaining members of the Wintu tribe out there and, a Native American tribe, indigenous tribe and his his insight to things in the 18th century was like really profound. I got to learn like a lot about even like Shasta County. Like he got sent by some white dude, Lager, to go to Sacramento for or San Francisco for two years to go to like primary school. And he still had like broken English and the book is written with his inflection, right? Like with his broken English and stuff. But it was just like that whole situation too of like, it's just like very eye -opening and I wouldn't have had an interest if I didn't visit that place. And then like that place inspiring that interest made me appreciate it more as I learned more about it. And like just learning how things have come to be is just really amazing. And maybe it's pointless. I'm going to be honest. Like sometimes I wonder what the point is, right? Like I can just go through life. make a check, feed myself, die. And ultimately that's kind of what's going to happen. So like, what's the point to these lightening things? It could be a lot of fun. Like, I don't want to just float around, you know? And so that's our plan is to kind of give ourselves, not just our kids, but the four of us that opportunity to learn things. That we would have no clue about really. mean, we're not going to get them in a textbook. Not for lack of effort. Textbooks are thousand pages, but they just don't have it. And so we'll supplement with textbooks and travel and experience and just try to give ourselves an experience. Yeah, I'd love that. I moved across the country back in 2000 and. seven for the first time and I had grown up on the, you know, in Virginia and the mountains and the green. And when I found out that me and my ex -husband were being stationed in Las Vegas, it was devastating to me. was like, I can't possibly live out there. That sounds terrible. I was very upset. And then I fell in love with the BLM. The ability to go out and not see another human being and encounter petroglyphs and like just how precious the plant life is and, you know, trees are appreciated in a whole different kind of way. And I never would have known the West if I hadn't been, you know, sort of forced to go there. And I'm so grateful. for that experience because it totally changed my perspective. And now here I am in New Mexico because I just fell in love with public lands and the ability to be out and feel so tiny. You know, when you like pick a peak and you're like, I'm going there today and you climb up there and then you look down at the valley where all of your stress and worries are and you just feel so small and so insignificant and the things that you feel stressed about. You know, at work or whatever, like seems so insignificant, you know, when you get that, you know, moment of perspective and that is just invaluable. And certainly, you know, on the basic needs that we have, enlightenment is pretty high up on the Maslow's hierarchy, right? But that's what we yearn for. We yearn for that next level because, you know, we've got all the basics kind of taken care of. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. There's so many things I want to. I mean, you said it so the. You know, I I'd like to go back East as well and like experience some of the old. Country stuff like American country, mean just United States history and the Smithsonian and sort of like the anthropological aspect of it. which the West has, but that's different. I mean, recent human history anthropology, I'd really love to touch on that or see what all the hype is about these really old, wealthy families back East. I know I've had pretty... I think West Coast and East Coast are drastically different, having met a lot of people and our priorities tend to be different. geology is different. so I like you, you know, when you moved to Vegas and you learned it was more than just the Vegas strip and that kind of seems to have set your trajectory after that interacting with public land. That's exactly what I mean. And I'm not going to get that if I just buy a 3000 square foot home now or probably ever. And so there's It's just what do I find value in? What do you find value in? And a lot of people don't know because they haven't been exposed. And then that exposure, like you moving to Vegas or me moving into an RV kind of shifts paradigms. Well, Isaiah, this has been such a fun conversation with you today. Thank you so much for sharing all of your thoughts about, you know, how to get into van life. know there's so many folks out there that are, that are toying with these different ideas. So thanks for sharing. Please let us know how listeners can reach you. Well, I, you know, I guess Bay area at wonder vans .com. Wonder vans is with an a, if you want to talk to me directly. just address isaiah, I -S -A -I -A -H, Bay Area at wondervans .com. But otherwise, for any services throughout the country from any WonderVans location, just go to wondervans .com. We're all a little bit different. I'm definitely like the main builder. And you can find some services in Boise and in Duluth, possibly Spokane, Salt Lake City. You can rent a van. OK. I'm always open to questions and you can definitely reach out via that email address. Thanks for having me on. I looked forward to it. kept bugging you. When is it again? When is it? Even though I'm just a little disorganized in that sense. Hey, thank you for taking the time to listen to Less House More Moolah. I have another free resource on my website for you, the Unconventional Values Quiz. In just two minutes, you can pinpoint your style of freedom seeker, security guardian, adventure enthusiast, or community builder. Check it out at thetinyhouseadvisor .com. And one more thing, podcasts don't have algorithms like social media does. They only grow by word of mouth and reviews. If this podcast is helpful to you, would you please post a review on your podcast app? and tell a friend who is trying to live a values -based life. It would totally make my day.